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ATP-Level Main Draw
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We all know about the benefits of pronation and wrist action to a serve. We've even seen slow motion videos of what actually happens when they hit the ball, yet many of us still believe in the existence of a conscious or forced wrist snap to generate pace on the serve and keep it in in the tiny service box. There are countless coaches out there that even advocate this kind of technique. And many of us even use this technique and are satisfied with it.
Then there are the few, who've been raised with great coaches and/or have played all their lives who, whether they believe in this downward wrist snap or not, don't use it at all and can bomb serves well over 120 mph and easily keep it in the court at a very high percentage.
Then there are the others, who've found their own way from experimenting and tinkering with the little things in their motion, slowly changing it over time to slowly raise their readings on the radar gun. They've tried it all, the wrist snaps, the hard topspin serves, the hit straight through it and believe in gravity ideas, forcing extreme levels of pronation, and whatever else is possible to do with the human arm, a racket, and a tennis ball.
In this point in time, we all have some kind of belief on how to most effectively hit our serves, and I want to see the varied opinions on how people think they can most effectively hit their serve.
Here's mine:
I believe that to generate the maximum amount of pace, control, and consistency, you have to hit up and through the ball towards your intended target (whether you use heavy spin or not). How much and how you do it determines what kind of ball you produce. Oh, and some of these ideas can be applied to second serves as well. I personally use this technique for second serves as well, as you might have already guessed.
P.S. I hope nobody picks option 5. :lol: Then again I don't blame you cause we've all been through those bad serving days.
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1162
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I've always been told 'hit up and through it'. That was sort of the classical way of teaching the serve. But like most tennis strokes, these days things have changed and there are all new ways of teaching it.
Generically speaking, the balls that I hit with the most pace are the ones that I hit the cleanest (not necessarily the hardest), with as little head action as possible and mostly relaxed. That probably changes as you get really good, but its worked for me. (I have a good 1st serve that I can move around a lot)
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ATP-Level Main Draw
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Haelfix - 9/20/2009 7:23 PM
I've always been told 'hit up and through it'. That was sort of the classical way of teaching the serve. But like most tennis strokes, these days things have changed and there are all new ways of teaching it.
Well, whether it's the classical way or not, it's the right way. Nowadays, we have coaches teaching players to snap down on the ball with their wrist. That is completely detrimental to generating racket head speed on the serve, as well as reducing your chances of getting it over the net.
As we should all know, the only way to maximize racket head speed is to have a good stroke foundation (use of the kinetic chain) and being completely relaxed and fluid.
Sampras, with the greatest service motion of all time, has the most relaxed and fluid motion of all time. I would be horribly surprised if he really ruined all that fluidity with a snap on his wrist.
If you look at Roddick's motion, it's a violently upward motion. But his toss is well into the court so his velocity is focused into the ball in an upward and forward trajectory. He cannot consistently serve 130-140 mph above 70% with a wrist snap. It would ruin the fluidity of his stroke and drop his numbers greatly as a result.
Racket head speed comes from violent yet accurate and coordinated acceleration as well as fluidity. You can't be fluid if you tense up and focus on a single joint. The fluidity will stop there, and the momentum you've gained will all be lost. So unless you've got one MIGHTY POWERFUL wrist, you're actually losing racket head speed.
And yes, balls hit the cleanest will have the most pace. Though I can shank the ball on the top of the frame, get it in, and still break 100 mph. (Though I don't like doing it cause I lose a lot of pace.)
I also have a good first serve that I can move around very well, but I want more pace on it since it'll allow me to get more free points (aces).
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Challenger Main Draw
Posts: 262
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I learned my serve from watching federer actually, although I'm sure those of you older than me learned teh same from sampras. Fluidity, proper weight transfer, toss. I find that longer service motions are more effective because it gives you more time to generate racquet head speed.
It's already been mentioned before but a relaxed arm is very important in the serve, although also in every other single stroke.
Hm... pronation should happen naturally I think if you use the continental. I'll pay attention next time and get back to you about it.
Core strength is also very, very important I find because i helps with getting the weight into the serve although it's probably just as important on the other strokes.
Sorry, I guess it's pretty obvious that I can't coach.
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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Solar - 10/3/2009 6:41 PM
Hm... pronation should happen naturally I think if you use the continental.
It is. It's impossible to hit a flat serve, or even a slice serve (basically any serve) with a continental or a backhand grip and not pronate.
However, the more pronation you can generate in a smaller time frame, the more pace you will generally produce. But that requires massive racket acceleration and a loose arm to allow the momentum to transfer as efficiently as possible.
Edited by AllCourtWannabe 10/6/2009 3:09 AM
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Futures Qualifier
Posts: 27
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interesting...
I've been working w/a coach who's been trying to convert me to a "Roddick-like" motion - I can do it but it doesn't feel "natural" to me. that said, he says I have one of the more unusual motions he's ever seen (which I admit evolved rather was taught) - I normally use a very open grip (think eastern forehand), a long swing (slower but more consistent acceleration) and get a good bit of velocity (though admittedly never been clocked - just compared to my A-8 teammates) but a lot of spin that produces very unpredictable bounces. I don't hit that many aces (probably average 2-3/match) but I create a lot of easy poaches for my partner, have a very high 1st %, don't have to take much (if anything) off when I do have 2nds & don't get broken very often. I hit one earlier this yr that caught the outside corner & had enough on it to ride the side fence, keep climbing around the 4'/45-degree tapered corner before finally jumping the back fence - now THAT'S demoralizing! (though I probably couldn't do that again to save my life) 
note: I should add that I've broken both my wrist & collarbone (bad cycling wreck in '94) so my "unique" motion is also something of an adaptation to "eccentric healing" (my Dr's words) of the later. oddly enough, my 1st serve got a lot more consistent after the accident - not harder, just consistent (1st % went way up) - go figure...
Edited by jakesdad 10/6/2009 1:49 PM
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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jakesdad - 10/6/2009 7:49 AM
interesting...
I've been working w/a coach who's been trying to convert me to a "Roddick-like" motion - I can do it but it doesn't feel "natural" to me.
I've been considering doing that when the upward acceleration of my racket and body felt so violent it reminded me of Roddick. Even in the load position (trophy position) it felt like I was like Roddick cause I felt like I really loaded up for a massive upward launch. It got me massive pace, spin, accuracy, and consistency. But I used a classic motion instead of an abbreviated motion cause I like it that way. I might change if I really want that extra mph on my serve.
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Futures Main Draw
Posts: 57
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Hi jakesdad, The injury you mentioned is the cause of not performing the classical way. The kinetic-chain fluidity is broken. That is why you try to serve with the Easter-Grip so that it is easier for you to serve flat. Do worry about Pronation. Make compromise and practice placement? Sounds OK to you?
Edited by guy L 10/9/2009 8:12 AM
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Futures Main Draw
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Hi ACWB, As usual, you have brought up another good subject. "The Wrist Snap" can still be heard in many parts of the world. It is good to repeat it.
Your explanations were great. compliments.
I think.#5 is not good but still it is better than #1.
Look at the pictures between McEnroe ("STRETCHING YOUR PATIENCE- Unke,) and Ryan Harrison ("Don't stop believing"-Bodo),both post 9/Oct09. in Tennis.com.
McEnroe shows no wrist snap because his elbow is stretched straightly and he pronates with his UNDERARM. He is performing a hit through serve. Whereas Harrison is performing a top spin kick serve. His is hitting up and through it. He bends his elbow so that he can make the downward motion. He needs to loosen up his wrist to give him a fluid follow through.
"Wrist snap" is absolute bad instruction. We can loosen up our wrist after impact but never use a wrist snap motion to strike the ball.
"Pronation" mentioned in the Serve is an inside turn motion of the underarm with stretched elbow.
Edited by guy L 10/9/2009 9:40 AM
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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guy L - 10/9/2009 6:00 AM
I think.#5 is not good but still it is better than #1.
Haha. Yeah... That was meant to be a joke option...
But hey, we were all there once with out second serves. 
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Posts: 2183
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Here'a a question. Should you have weight evenly distributed between the front foot and the back foot when you're in the trophy position?
I have a problem propelling myself into the court and landing on my left foot, which is why I think I lack a bit of power. Where exactly does the back foot five you the propulsion in the serve?
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E Pluribus Unum
Out of Many, One
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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TheNewFederer - 10/10/2009 10:41 AM
Here'a a question. Should you have weight evenly distributed between the front foot and the back foot when you're in the trophy position?
I have a problem propelling myself into the court and landing on my left foot, which is why I think I lack a bit of power. Where exactly does the back foot five you the propulsion in the serve?
It really depends on the stance. If you use pinpoint, you're weight is going to be evenly distributed. If you have good form and balance (the latter being far more important), even if you lean into the court, you're weight is almost evenly (if not completely evenly) distributed between your feet. The pinpoint stance propels you upward and slightly forward. There are also multiple different ways of how the feet are set up in a pinpoint stance, but generally the weight is nearly evenly distributed and the most important thing is comfort and balance.
Now, for the platform stance, your weight really goes forward more than upward. Though, the closer you move your feet together (more towards platform stance), you notice that you can really get more upward action into the ball especially if you load your legs extremely like Andy Roddick. During the trophy position for a platform stance serve, you can have the weight evenly distributed, or favor the front leg. The former allows you to go upward a little more easily and generate more topspin (doesn't mean you can't hit heavy topspin if you favor your weight on the front leg). The latter allows you to really hit through the ball and get some extra pop on it. So if you want to add pace to your kickers, start off with moving more of your weight onto your front leg. You won't get as much kick, but you can eventually build the kick back up.
It's all a matter of comfort and balance. If you want to add extra pop to your serve, you should always try to favor your front leg more and toss farther into the court.
And you don't land on your left foot? Last I checked you were doing pretty well with that.
You use a pinpoint stance, yes? Well, try tossing into the court by a few extra inches, and move your hips into the court a little, then explode upward and forward into the ball. Or you can switch to a platform stance with the feet slightly less than shoulder width apart and heavily favor the front foot with your weight. I've tried the latter and really found a lot of extra pop on my serves. Though it wasn't always comfortable to me and it wasn't great under pressure. I might go back to it one day, but not anytime soon.
I might've overkilled the explanations again but put up any questions you have and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities. I'll try to cut the next couple of answers down to something a bit shorter.
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Futures Main Draw
Posts: 57
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Hi TNF, ACW has already explained perfectly the weight distribution
A supplement which I would like to add. It is very important to make sure that the heel of the back foot is not planted flat on the ground as we start the ball toss and take back. The heel must leave the ground . Otherwise, all the bad elements that can obstruct the fluid serve motions will pop up. for instance, inconsistent tosses (Too far out, backwards,jerks etc.),supine position, the right upper arm is not raised up to shoulder level,and the kinetic chain motion will go detour, etc.etc.. Here is a 100% cure for this which I like to share with you all: Place an old racket on the ground and put your right heel (Righty) on the frame as you get for the toss. (any small objects will do,for instance, a stone a tennis ball.). The heel should part with the frame as you toss and take back of racket. That's all. Have fun !!
Without turning the right side of the body out could be one of the cause of less power.
Copy the way how a Quarter-Back turns his body when he throws the ball.For all you Americans,no problem!! HaHa!
Edited by guy L 10/11/2009 11:31 AM
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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guy L - 10/11/2009 8:27 AM
It is very important to make sure that the heel of the back foot is not planted flat on the ground as we start the ball toss and take back. The heel must leave the ground . Otherwise, all the bad elements that can obstruct the fluid serve motions will pop up.
Hmmm... Quite curious. Federer has his back foot's heel on the floor then he starts his service motion (toss and takeback), and I think Sampras might too. However, once their motion continues (toss and takeback) the heel comes off the floor. Before they get to the trophy position, the heel is off the floor.
Never tried having my heel not on the floor before I begin the toss... I might try that... Though I use a platform serve and I think a lot of us, especially those who start with the toe pointed up like Sampras, will have our heel on the floor until we start the toss. Blake does it too I believe.
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Futures Main Draw
Posts: 57
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Hi TCW It is aways a pleasure to talk to you.
You are absolutely right with your comment. But it was probably due to my incomplete English that caused this misunderstanding. When I wrote"PLANTED FLAT on the ground", I meant "pressed hard against the ground". And for "AS we start the ball toss", I am sure that I used the right word "AS" . I did not mean "before"( Correct me if I am wrong.).
Maybe I should have written my text like this: It is important to make sure that the heel of the back foot is not pressed hard against the ground (A very common problem with under 3.0 Player) as we start the ball toss and take back. As the weight starts to shift to the front foot,the heel of the back foot shall leave the ground. This will make the knee bend motion easier if the heel comes up. We can only push our weight up to give us power with a bent knee. Right? The tip to practice serve with an object placed under the heel is only to let the player/student feel the knee bend.The rest will all come automatically. This is also effective for solving one of the Foot Fault problems. There was a Davis Cup teammate of B.Becker in Germany. His whole bodyweight was on the back foot and the hell was pressed flat against the ground when he tossed and take back. The result.His serve speed was under 140 kmh.
Now I come to the comment "point the toe up". We can see that J. Connors, Boris Becker and many others besides Sampras,Federer, and Blake do so. In my opinion, It is an act of balance. No body can move quickly without putting weight on the toe first and lift up the heel.The kinetic chain starts and the next joint is the knee,hip and so on. If the heels are planted deep (pressed hard) the whole body starts to wobble. But as soon as the weight is a little more (If we can weight that) on the toe than on the heel, it will make the balance act easier. As soon as we bend our knees th weight will automatically be more on the toe. Try that. We see Sampras,Federer and more players have their heels of the back foot in contacted with the ground when they tossed.I am sure it is a very light contact. Definitely not pressed. Maybe a "Hawk-Eye" can verify that. Ha.Ha.
By the way, once more . The tip "Place an object under the heel" is to convey the feeling of how to keeping balance with the weight on the front part of the feet. From my experience, the player/student needs only less than ten tries to obtain the feeling of balance when he tosses. Just say "Watch your heel !" when he starts and you will see that he can execute the motion you would like him to do.Have fun !!
Edited by guy L 10/12/2009 10:30 AM
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ATP-Level Main Draw
Posts: 1006
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guy L - 10/12/2009 7:26 AM
Hi TCW It is aways a pleasure to talk to you.
You are absolutely right with your comment. But it was probably due to my incomplete English that caused this misunderstanding. When I wrote"PLANTED FLAT on the ground", I meant "pressed hard against the ground". And for "AS we start the ball toss", I am sure that I used the right word "AS" . I did not mean "before"( Correct me if I am wrong.).
Maybe I should have written my text like this: It is important to make sure that the heel of the back foot is not pressed hard against the ground (A very common problem with under 3.0 Player) as we start the ball toss and take back. As the weight starts to shift to the front foot,the heel of the back foot shall leave the ground. This will make the knee bend motion easier if the heel comes up. We can only push our weight up to give us power with a bent knee. Right? The tip to practice serve with an object placed under the heel is only to let the player/student feel the knee bend.The rest will all come automatically. This is also effective for solving one of the Foot Fault problems. There was a Davis Cup teammate of B.Becker in Germany. His whole bodyweight was on the back foot and the hell was pressed flat against the ground when he tossed and take back. The result.His serve speed was under 140 kmh.
Now I come to the comment "point the toe up". We can see that J. Connors, Boris Becker and many others besides Sampras,Federer, and Blake do so. In my opinion, It is an act of balance. No body can move quickly without putting weight on the toe first and lift up the heel.The kinetic chain starts and the next joint is the knee,hip and so on. If the heels are planted deep (pressed hard) the whole body starts to wobble. But as soon as the weight is a little more (If we can weight that) on the toe than on the heel, it will make the balance act easier. As soon as we bend our knees th weight will automatically be more on the toe. Try that. We see Sampras,Federer and more players have their heels of the back foot in contacted with the ground when they tossed.I am sure it is a very light contact. Definitely not pressed. Maybe a "Hawk-Eye" can verify that. Ha.Ha.
By the way, once more . The tip "Place an object under the heel" is to convey the feeling of how to keeping balance with the weight on the front part of the feet. From my experience, the player/student needs only less than ten tries to obtain the feeling of balance when he tosses. Just say "Watch your heel !" when he starts and you will see that he can execute the motion you would like him to do.Have fun !!
Hmmm... Someone like Sampras heavily loads his weight on his back foot, pushing his heel heavily to the floor. Their weight seems pretty heavily loaded on that heel. But as they do their toss, they move weight back forward and onto their toes. Federer actually lifts his front foot off the floor when he serves. But this is a common "rocking" motion for the serve. People rock their weight back then forward into the serve. It's kind of like the running start people use for volleyball serves, only far more subtle. Some people say this shifting of weight from the back foot to the front foot is necessary. I'm not totally sure. I'm sure I don't do it for balance purposes.
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Player Type: Allcourt player
Best Single Shot: Federer Style "Dip Drive"
Weakness: Cramping
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Futures Main Draw
Posts: 57
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"With an object placed under the heel"-This will give the student the same feeling what Sampras has (pretty heavily loaded on the heel.). I always tell my student that the shifting of weight is only neccesary for toss. Whether one does it purposely or unconsciously,it always happen. Because we need to put weight on the left foot to lift the left arm to toss. And we need to put weight on the right foot for take back and stroke.
I always suggest to my students not to wobble too much. It is much better for the balance ,just like you said.
Edited by guy L 10/12/2009 7:42 PM
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Futures Qualifier
Posts: 14
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I see that you have moved from the hand to the feet in this discussion...sorry for jumping in and moving back to the hand!
AllCourtWannabe - 10/6/2009 3:09 AM
However, the more pronation you can generate in a smaller time frame, the more pace you will generally produce. But that requires massive racket acceleration and a loose arm to allow the momentum to transfer as efficiently as possible.
I was skimming this thread and came across this comment. I really think this nails it.
Concentrating the pronation over a very small time frame has tremendous benefits and is something shared by all of the great servers. My top training priority over the past year has been to improve this part of my serve.
I find that it not only contributes to pace, but also opens the door to another level of control. When the hitting surface of the racquet changes from facing west to east over a period of time that can only be captured in high-speed video, we are essentially moving the axis of rotation to a position very close to the ball. This means we can keep everything in alignment until we are very close to contact, and then accelerate onto the ball. The acceleration is magnified because it's at the end of the chain.
The confusion usually comes in because when we talk about a whip and a chain, some people think that the last link or lever is a snapping wrist (snapping forward), which would encourage the wrong type of contact (uncontrollable flat-on collision without spin).
The last link is really a rotating racquet, which enhances the interaction of the strings and ball at contact...I like to think of it as a transmission of leverage and energy from the body combined with the enormous acceleration that can be stored by maintaining the edge-on racquet face and continuing to load up the entire arm for pronation right up to contact.
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Futures Main Draw
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For the subject " Service techniques. (First Serves), SS, your description on how the hand works to add power is perfect. No better way to do it.
TCW and I were answering the question from TNF (weight on foot) and tried to solve his problem of balance. Would you like to give comment on that subject and debate my comments so I may learn from you.
In my opinion,and I am sure many of you will also agree, power can only come from the feet(legs).
I used very often to give "Car Driving" as example (A plain and simple language that every car driver can understand.). "Press the gas pedel lightly for lest power(low speed). Press harder for more power(high speed). Adjust your seat position to suit your leg length so that your ankle and knee can move comfortably for fine acceleration motions (The appropriate foot stance at the ready position). Ignite (Split step) and Go! ".
I have always observed the student's leg and foot stances and their movements first to find out if these are the cause of their stroke failures. I can say with certainty that 80% of all stroke technique failure comes from bad foot work.
Edited by guy L 10/13/2009 4:02 PM
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Futures Qualifier
Posts: 14
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guy L - 10/13/2009 3:59 PM
TCW and I were answering the question from TNF (weight on foot) and tried to solve his problem of balance. Would you like to give comment on that subject and debate my comments so I may learn from you.
I don't know if I have anything definitive to add to the discussion, as I pretty much agree with everything I've seen written. Personally, I never spent much time thinking about weight shift or distribution for my own serve. I think I did what came natural to me. As I learned more about what should be happening with my shoulder, arm, and racquet, I think my feet figured out how to get me there automatically. This may not be the case for other students, but I was a pitcher, quarterback, and volleyball player so maybe it was better for me to let my body figure certain things out automatically. That being said, even I have issues sometimes with weight shift issues that tend to add too much horizontal rotation to my serve. When this happens, I just think about driving up more through my motion. Of course, the toss position is critical. If I toss quite far in front of me, my body will figure out a way to shift the weight in order to make good contact. If I toss more straight above me, things will be different. An example here is the two different ways to land two feet inside the baseline. The obvious way is to toss further into the court. However, some of the top pro servers toss almost straight up, yet still land about a foot or two inside the baseline (Djokovic and Kohlschreiber) This is done by driving the weight straight up and then torquing at the abdomen, creating that look of getting punched in the stomach. The result of this is that the torso leans forward into the court while the hips actually go backwards a little, with the left foot extending forward so it lands underneath the torso and the right leg kicking back for counter-balance. I guess my point is that the initial weight distribution, the weight shift, and the direction of leg drive will be different for these two types of serve motions, even though things may look similar if the picture is frozen right at the contact point. The recovery is also different. The more forward toss, like Sampras, will facilitate a recovery step further into the court...good for serve and volley. The straight up toss and drive will result in a backwards recovery step, which is better for staying behind the baseline. Would love to hear your thoughts.
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